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Talk:Pandemonium Warden
Since a number of people have actually popped this thing, could one of them please add some information about how they obtained the key to pop it (that page is quite devoid of information). Thanks! Austineze 16:50, 23 August 2008 (UTC) Whoever added that note about the goblin seems to be misinformed. The reason that the goblin popped instead of Pandemonium Warden was because they traded it to a ??? in Wajaom Woodlands for some reason, rather than Aydeewa Subterrane, which is where the NPC tells you to use it. --Kyrie 00:57, 26 June 2008 (UTC) Is Pandemonium Warden really a Dvergr? --Luke 04:41, 26 June 2008 (UTC) That is the current assumptions. however, since it's never yet been popped, no one knows for certain. After we fight it tonight, I'll try to post as much as I can (including photos) --Seeko 15:58, 26 June 2008 (UTC) Pandy Warden fights Starts off in it's initial form of a Dvergr, but immediately changes into a chariot form and pops a number of triple gears (Pandemonium Lamps) that spam TP moves that strip shadows. They seem to have shared hate with each other or something. The LS that's fighting them now killed all but one, then killed PW, it respawned in its original form at full HP and spawned with more Lamps. There's a topic at Order of the Blue Grartr where the people are discussing their fight. As a chariot it uses some AoE 10k needles-like move. Not sure what's going on now though, but they're still fighting it. --Sabishii 03:45, 27 June 2008 (UTC) Drops? We don't know for sure what it drops untill someone kills it. But here is a list of new items that don't have a home yet. *Hachiryu Haramaki *Crapaud Earring *Roundel Earring *Nanatsusaya *Shlng. Baghnakhs *Wise Strap *Witch Sash *Brave Grip *Cuchulain's Mantle *Cuchulain's Belt All of these or none of these might drop from PW. Again this is only items that have found NO home, there could be items that drop off of PW that also drop elsewhere. I don't know why someone added the Haramaki to the main page. IMO that's just silly.--AnonRamuh 19:56, 30 July 2008 (UTC) Not THAT silly considering all Hachiryu gear drops from other (and ONLY) ZNMs, the Shenlong Baghnakhs are on par if not better than Destroyers, and most of the other gear seems to be top tier stuff. I don't think some little overlooked NM bunny outside Windy in the past is going to drop it, to be honest. :-P --Sabishii 21:16, 30 July 2008 (UTC) I added the Haramaki, its the only OBVIOUS piece that drops from PW. Everyone knows it and are probably building their zeni right now to aquire it. I only added what everyone already knew.Jhromada 02:06, 31 July 2008 (UTC) You don't KNOW anything until someone manages to kill PW, and get the drop. Until then, it's still just an assumption, albeit a most likely accurate one. Probably shouldn't have been added until it's confirmed, but at least it has the 'verification needed' tag on it. -Yena 07:04, 31 July 2008 (UTC) I 100% agree with Yena, even with the verification needed part. This is a big enough deal to point it out, but not big enough for us to start a wiki war over, so lets just leave it for now. ^.^ --AnonRamuh 23:45, 3 August 2008 (UTC) I understand u want the site to be based on accurate information. I added it for the main reason so people can find it. And they know most likely what the prize at the end of the road can be. I added verification needed because its not verified and is what i thought that tag is for, something like this. Other than people clickin on Hachiryu haramaki set link, people dont see this. So there it is, i added for the benefit of others, not just because im really sure it drops it.Jhromada 09:07, 6 August 2008 (UTC) They can find it just as easily by going to Hachiryu Haramaki Set if they're curious as to what it does. --Xalioniaf 06:13, 7 August 2008 (UTC) Hachiryu Haramaki has been removed from the list of drops, and I would like for it to remain that way. While many things point to the Hachiryu body dropping from Pandemonium Warden it has NEVER been killed. Therefore, I humbly request that the drops remain empty until professionals who have proof of drops decide to change that. Please don't make an idiot of yourself and assume. Kisukesama :Wow, of course we should do what YOU want... Seriously, there's one ZNM yet to be killed, and the above list are all items added at the same time the ZNM system was implemented. I think it's a safe bet that 90% or more of these drop from PW. So it's not verified yet, thats what the tag is for.--Tellah of Carbuncle 05:29, 13 August 2008 (UTC) We don't even need a tag. PW hasn't been killed, thus, we don't know what it drops. For all we know the items on that above list could drop off the past versions of King Artho and etc... with a drop rate of 1/64. Don't post anything until you have a screenshot with the drop list of what drops off Pandemonium Warden when it is finally killed. However, with a 10x Astral Flow at 75% after having gone through an 18+ hour fight with it... I really, seriously, doubt anyone will be killing him anytime soon. --Fiye 23:54, 13 August 2008 (UTC) So what would Dorje drop off of? If it isn't from this, can anyone figure a possible alternative? --Garadante 06:17, 20 August 2008 (UTC) Yes. It is possible that no enemy currently in the game is coded to drop it, and they won't add it in until the next patch. It's been done before. --Taeria 06:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC) I'm sure this is old news by now, but Witch Sash has been confirmed to drop elsewhere. Perhaps others of the above drop off of Campaign Ops as well? --FFXI-Ironside 22:10, 7 October 2008 (UTC) 18 Hour Fight?? I have heard from two different sources this week that a linkshell attempted to take down PW, fought it for 18 hours straight, and gave up because a number of the members had taken ill and the linkshell had decided the danger wasn't worth it. I guess what I'm saying is: In present form and knowledge, Pandemonium Warden is not going to be killed. Period. And their statement vis-a-vis not wanting to see life and the like damaged is also BS too. It really sounds as if this is another fight that Square-Enix does not want winnable. --Starcade 21:20, 14 August 2008 (UTC) Note: Pure speculation here. Is is possible that there's some type of glitch involved here? As in, maybe SE meant for this guy to randomly assume one different form, but because of some error he assumes all forms, cycling through them once killed? I'm just throwing this idea out there because it seems like a ridiculous fight if it is real, and if you need one special key item/title/setup to defeat it, it just makes the fight ludicrously tedious. Just a random thought, I have absolutely NO evidence to substantiate this aside from my own gut feeling. --Anobi 08:30, 15 August 2008 (UTC) The same thing was likely true of Absolute Virtue when it became available. In many ways, Pandemonium Warden can be seen as ToAU's AV. It's possible that he'll be cut down a few notches in the next patch, but it's equally possible he has some secret to defeat that people haven't discovered yet. Either way, time provides the solution. (And yes, once he becomes repeatedly killable, we can see what he actually drops.) --Taeria 10:11, 15 August 2008 (UTC) I too share the feeling that at the moment it is not meant to be killed. Some of the items he purportedly drops seem to me like they are not ready to be implemented into the game, as they are have qualities to them that have just come out of nowhere. Magic Critical Rate +% - this throws everything we currently know about magic damage out of the window. Perhaps this will tie-in to the Black Mage Nyzul relic weapon, which is as of now, a mystery. I also think that the player-base as is such being used as a "live beta test" in that they want to monitor the fights, how they progress, who fights it on each server - because they haven't actually done any testing of their own. From the accounts of people who have fought this and those of my friend who watched one of the fights for a few hours, it's pretty ridiculous. This being said, Absolute Virtue is in a similar state at the moment - seemingly un-killable and people are just not even attempting to fight it. It's simply not worth it. No normal, sane human being can sit in front of a game non-stop for 18 hours on edge, stressed, under pressure and totally focused on fighting this thing and not feel any adverse effects. Perhaps the guy in the interview who said it could be an 18 hour fight was joking and people have taken him too literally, when in fact these things are unbeatable at the moment. In this case, why add something that is unbeatable? Why make people waste time, energy and money being able to pop it when there will be no end result? Then why joke it will take 18 hours real-time to defeat it? Baffles me. -- Aequis 10:17, 15 August 2008 (UTC) Honestly, after reading up on this boss and his constant habit of switching forms, I was reminded of something interesting. Square released a forgotten RPG around eight years ago called SaGa Frontier II, and the final boss of that game would also assume many forms before its final defeat. If you were to approach the boss as-is, he would cycle through an original form, six forms based on the elemental wheel of the game with each separated by a redux of the original form, and a final form. In all, there was in the nighborhood of 14 different versions to kill before the game could be won, which honestly, would be nigh-impossible for your average gamer without borderline-OCD preparation and a metric ton of stat grinding. Each form was not only increasingly more difficult, but each also boasted 15,000-20,000 HP (likely the equivalent of 50,000-60,000 in Vana'diel after considering the number of party members in SFII compared to FFXI). There was a fairly simple solution to it all, however. Within the area culminating in this battle, there were six lesser bosses; each representing a single element in the game. Every time your party successfully defeats one of these elemental lords, that elemental form is removed from the final boss's cycle. Needless to say, taking on each separately instead of in one very long, grueling battle is a much wiser move as recovery options are very limited during combat. I normally would not consider such a thing, but since SFII is a Square production, the possibility that FFXI draws many inspirations from the SaGa series (combat skills, weapon skills, a separate point gauge for physical skills as opposed to the reliance on MP for both magic and special abilities in traditional FFs, and mission-based storylines), SFII not being the only instance in which Square has employed a boss with numerous phases, and given the sheer LENGTH of the battle with Pandemonium Warden...I'm going to go out on a limb and say there's something more to this fight than meets the eye. --Mineyl 17:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC) I find this 18 hour fight thing quite funny... Yea i feel bad for the people that got sick, but people are so angry, like..furious about this monster... SE would no put something like this into a game, especially not something that would tak e18 to kill, obviously there is a trick, but people are too stubborn to think about that, they are just yelling about how dumb SE is... i will love to see how to kill this guy...that and AV, maybe one day theyt will tell us, or someone will figure it out Rinnsi 08:36, 18 August 2008 (UTC) Rinnsi Just a thought, and this probably isn't the best place to put it for hot discussion, but did anyone check on the status of the Besieged generals before during or after the fight? PW can turn into every one of them, but what if them being captured can change that. It would be one of the easier things (how sad is that) to check, anyway. Have a general get captured, fight PW for freakin' hours, see if he can still turn into that general. Maybe hunting down the Kings could also lock his ability to turn into them, but lets not go crazy with the idea as of yet.~ Evode 10:15, 18 August 2008 (UTC) Knowing how SE likes to think, my guess is that the T1-T4 ZNM's probably tie into the Pandemonium Warden fight, and his shapeshifting. For example, a while back, the PW page used to list what, two forms that he would change into? And now theres 18. I think that its highly probable that ZNM's defeated by PW's popper has a direct effect on PW's shapeshifting. Also taking into account that he is a difficult ToAU NM, Generals, ToAU Kings, and maybe even Einherjar could have a direct influence on him. 18 forms and 18 hours to fight...thats basically taking an hour to kill each form, and that is just plain rediculous. Heavy-duty Endgame Linkshells that have enough people for rotations, like LabyrinthofPhantasm on Bahamut server, are probably the only groups that could take this thing without ill effect to players, were it to be an 18 hour fight. What I would like to know, is how resistant is he to enfeeblig magic, how much DMG do BLM's do to him, and how useful are SMN's against him? --Aledacia 08:02, 19 August 2008 (UTC) Rinnsi: You can't say that SE wouldn't put something that would take 18 hours to fight in the game, because Sagesundi himself said that it was likely whenever people figured out how to beat AV that it would take 18 hours to fight it. That's probably why people are angry, because it calls into sharp relief what SE thinks is a reasonable amount of time to spend on this game, let alone one fight. Not to mention it's hypocritical with what the opening screen from POL says about not forgetting your family, friends, job, or any other RL stuff. Aledacia: PW actually has 20 forms, counting the final Dvergr form. And it took BtL 30-45 minutes for most of the forms up to Vampyr and the TAU Kings, which I believe took a couple hours each on average. -- Strawberryman 05:46, 20 August 2008 (UTC) Hmm, a random contribution, but what if it is like the promy fight where you need a specific item to fix it into one form? And then depending on what form you fix it into affects the drops? Just a thought :-) Gideetudee 08:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC) Props to Lightningcount of Remora for posting false information on drops. Learn some Humility from this. OK Everyone! Before you type another statement you should read the blog by (I believe) Sylphet on the fight. I am regretably unable to link it due to petfoodalpha.com being down from to much server traffic (Or something to that effect) HOWEVER! If you read you will see what exactly went into the fight. I personally (After having read the entire blog) Believe that it is an amazing fight which should be battled with many many people over the course of a long time. They also recently said that AV would take roughly 18 hours to defeat. (Another reference to a PFA show which is currently down.) BUT! I think that is is SEs attempt to bring about a new style of fighting where we take shifts. A very strong endgame LS has easily 40-60 members. If the members know that the battle is coming up (IE it is a pop mob and they know they have the pop items.) Then they can plan and schedule themselves so that they can drop this oversized monster. I am happy to be part of a game that is breaking the previous barriers held in games. Will I ever venture into the ZNM race to try to take this behemoth down? Nah probably not because I don't have the time to dedicate to it. BUT I am sure someone out there will And more power to them. But please please don't make speculations with out reading the blog so that you understand exactly the way the fight went and how they did what they did. Katatonic 07:52, 22 August 2008 (UTC) Congratulations, Square Enix You have now become the top story on Yahoo! news as of 6:20 PM PDT 8/20/08 with the news about the 18 hour fight. This is not good, people. I could definitely see people wanting words (and perhaps legal actions) against Square-Enix (if, for no other reason, to start legally requiring games to cut off players after a certain amount of playtime per day...). --Starcade 01:25, 21 August 2008 (UTC) If the Illinois story didn't produce problems for SE, I don't see how that story would. Besides, I've heard of AV fights go on for longer; the only reason this one generated so much buzz is because the players didn't have the common sense to back out when they weren't feeling well. Seriously, it pops up every single time you log on. Don't forget your health. And if your linkshell doesn't have the courtesy to recognize your efforts in the fight even if you weren't there at the end, it's not worth being in. >_> --Taeria 01:32, 21 August 2008 (UTC) Sorry, but I think the level of devotion to the game necessary to actually get to high levels in the game (without engaging in RMT tactics) makes their statement hypocritical at best, and misleading otherwise. So I take the "Get a Life!" statement with a rather large quantity of salt. The fact is, as I said before: This mob should not even be attempted with present knowledge. It's not killable -- it's not meant to be killable. And, with this news story, SE creating something like this could lead to limitations as to when and how much people play games like this. --Starcade 20:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC) This is ridiculous; just because a group had the devotion to pursue an ineffective tactic long enough for it to pan out does not mean it takes 18 hours to kill. Yahoo and its piss-poor journalism. The fact they call it a 'boss-monster' doesnt help, as that can imply its mandatory. Love how yahoo is constantly guilty of this crap. --Avanent 02:14, 21 August 2008 (UTC) It's the "Boss Monster" of the ZNM part of the game. I will reiterate again: With present knowledge, this is such a ridiculous effort on the part of Square-Enix that the mob shouldn't even be attempted at this juncture. And NO FIGHT, in ANY GAME, should take that long without some means of mitigation. We already know that Square-Enix is willing to put ridiculously long fights into their games (which see FFXII's last "Mark" monster, which, without some specific tricks, is supposed to be a 10-hour fight!). That's inexcusable here. It just is. --Starcade 20:29, 21 August 2008 (UTC) Avanent is saying that Yahoo implied the monster was mandatory with its terminology - as in, the title of "Boss Monster" might be spot on, but the average reader who goes to Yahoo.com for his daily dose of important news relevant to his life (like this, right) who knows nothing about the game will still infer that people NEED to do this to "beat" FFXI. Setting that aside, I seriously disagree that it's for some reason "inexcusable" to put in a monster that no one knows the strategy for into the game - because that's what it is. No one knows the strategy. When they first introduced Kirin into the game, do you know how long it took to kill him at first? Dynamis Lord, HNMs, etcetera. This rule applies to any online game - if you go into a complicated fight without knowing what the strategy is, you're going to spent a hell of a lot longer on the thing than if you did know the trick. These halfwits that were fighting him should have realized at about half the time they did that there's some sort of tactic to this that they're not understanding, and that they should actually pull out and think - but instead, they continue to ram their heads against a wall, threatening their own health with poor judgment and wisdom. And somehow the company is the one that's smeared for stupidity. Fascinating. By the way, the Yiazmat mark fight in FFXII is not a good reference, as it should be common knowledge to anyone who actually fought or read about Yiazmat that you could leave at any point and come back - even if you couldn't, the most important discrepancy between XI and XII is that you can pause.--Awry 06:18, 22 August 2008 (UTC) Exactly. --Avanent 20:11, 15 September 2008 (UTC) Let's take your points one at a time, Awry: PW is a boss monster of the ENM situation -- just as the big boss monsters of the three beastman armies are not required to be killed to win a Besieged. And, insofar as FFXI isn't beatable anyway -- if you really wanted to measure "beating the game", this and AV would probably be the two last criteria. And I stand by my statement: It is inexcusable for Square-Enix to put into the game a monster that they have no intention of seeing people beat unless these people either break the Terms of Service, devote insane time periods to gameplay, or other such nonsense. I mean, you remember the hype over the video for AV? That seems to indicate that, at best, it's supposed to be a "trick fight", and, at worst, it's unbeatable. And now Square-Enix has admitted that's an 18 hour fight. Sorry. Inexcusable. And, as for the Yiazmat comment, it not only shows that Square-Enix is willing to put insanely long fights into the game, but they can put mitigation into them. Either make the fights beatable within reason, or get rid of them. --Starcade 23:42, 26 August 2008 (UTC) So I suppose, from your description, that the only people that would actually beat the game are the people that are moronic enough to try and defeat Absolute Virtue or Pandemonium Warden without any form of strategy, am I correct? You see, because even the best HNM shells go, spar with Absolute Virtue, see if this or that works, and then invariably withdraw because they don't have a solid strategy. Same thing with any other MMO boss - in WoW, a raid guild goes in and doesn't spend a million years repeatedly throwing themselves at a boss for which they have no strategy for - they test it, take notes about what they did, repeat with that in mind, progress, and after a while say "okay, next week we got him". AV and PW, yes, are the penultimate "bosses" of the game, but 90% of the playerbase isn't dedicated enough to fight them, 9% do and have common sense to pull out before the 18 hour mark, and of course you have the 1% of the idiots in the news story. Insofar as saying it's "inexcusable" for Square-Enix to do anything, you're already wrong right there. I shouldn't have to explain why, but I'll humor you with a simple answer - it's their game. Some people LIKE the challenge. Just because you don't, and just because you can't wrap your mind around the concept that, oh God, you know, these people that attempted this thing probably have a few extra chromosomes amongst themselves. I'm unsure if you've noticed or not, but devoting "insane time periods to gameplay" is what MMOs are usually about when you get to endgame. How many weeks does it take in Dynamis to get enough points for what you want? Sky? Limbus? Sea? Hell, you can even look at WoW. Tier progression? How long did it take for people to get to Black Temple? Etcetera, etcetera. Come now, don't tell me you're foolish enough to completely ignore the fact that all other forms of endgame are like this in some way or another. Just as you reiterate, so will I - take a wild guess at how many times the normal amount of effort in beating an HNM or something was magnified when IT FIRST CAME OUT. Probably a lot, right? Except that here, the first noteworthy attempt came by a group of fools who lingered dangerously close to injuring themselves in the process because they didn't know when to stop and split the 18 hour segment up into multiple parts. That's common sense, to take things in moderation. This could have been a blessed case of Darwinism, if we had been so lucky. Also, they never said AV was an 18-hour fight, they just said that, since it hasn't been figured out yet (much like other things in the game, like how eating Pamama with a Nanban Kariginu on raises evasion and accuracy), they were also going to lower the difficulty of that (it was also understandably to avoid any sort of legal flak from outraged soccer moms with little understanding and insight about the situation such as yourself). They're basically dumbing it down. Finally, I didn't really understand your last comment about the Yiazmat fight. You're basically restating what I already stated - it's a long fight, and there's mitigation in it in the form of the pause button so that no one except the stupidest person will sit down and do the entire thing in one run without taking any sort of break. The difference is that the strategy for Yiazmat is not nearly as complicated as the strategy for Pandemonium Warden, and that you cannot pause. Therefore, common sense translates that, instead of pausing, one could, God forbid, you know, STOP after maybe like two or three hours, and then go attempt it again later with the knowledge that you've hopefully absorbed from the encounter. These people were obviously "hardcore" (read: stupid) enough, and they had enough time, to go and attempt this for 18 hours without stopping, correct? Believe it or not, there are a lot of people out there that are going to keep attempting anything the game puts out, but most will have the wisdom to take breaks and understand that their health should be prioritized above their phat lewt, if I may. You keep saying inexcusable, inexcusable, cut the content, etcetera - I'm curious if you're even part and parcel to it? Do you engage in endgame at all? Are you part of an HNM? How much time have you put into it? I'm sure that, even if you're garnered just a few pieces of gear from Sky or Dynamis, your total amount of hours should completely rival what these few halfwits accomplished with Pandemonium Warden. --Awry 19:50, 4 October 2008 (UTC) This fight is probably still being figured out, so the length of time is probably going to be VERY variable, at best. As most say, it hasn't been figured out quite yet. That being said, there have been several things that have always been ridiculous when it came to the amount of dedication, and the fact is... Barring a few exceptions, most of us love it. If there was any point in time where a character in FFXI had actually achieved even MOST of what could be done, I think the player would delete the character and possibly quit the game. The major point of FFXI is that it has no end, people love that about all of the FFXI games.. You had far too much custimization for there ever to be an end. This having a few exceptions; certain NMs that have a single drop that is desirable that isn't LS friendly (EG: Argus), you can't have people rotate out to camp that, it's not worth finding people. You have a 5%~ drop for a NM that can take over 30 hours to spawn. That is just asking for third party users, no matter what the rationale is they're trying to pass off. The length of this fight really shouldn't be a hot topic, but the current state of general amount of time played to obtain gear alone should. (gear farming, lesser NM drop rates, etc.) EDIT: The current exchange for gil seems to be 30-50 bucks for 1 million gil from RMT sites. (Interesting side note: while on these digs to further understand RMT... They sell r/e items that recent "patches" did to discourage RMT.. Go figure.) A person who works for $8.00/hour can get an extra part time job for 15 hours a week and buy 2.3-5 million while still having time to maintain life and play the game for a few hours. From what I have asked from other players, they can make 5 million in 2-4 months if they stopped doing other stuff on the game entirely. THAT is what SE should be worried about, not that people are having a hard time figuring out how to shorten NM kills. It's pretty obvious that Square (and SE) is and has always been big on making bosses that are either highly challenging, nearly unwinnable, or absolutely unwinnable if you try a standard approach to it, but can be made much easier when you utilize the right trick(s) or special item(s). Many of the battles in FFXI are examples of this writ large, I would say, and Pandemonium Warden probably has this writ largest. For such a creature, the weakness will probably be rather convoluted or complex, perhaps six characters requiring a certain set of weapons, and six others having one particular key item (and needing to not have certain other key items). Again, the 18 hours on Pandemonium Warden aren't actually expected by SE - it is how long a group decided to burn on Warden before giving up. --Volkai 15:30, 22 August 2008 (UTC) Suggestion how to kill PW I just thought about the idea how to kill him "fast". Well as you can see in the article, he has 8 lamps. Maybe the trick is to kill him and the lamps at the same time. Sounds in the first moment easy, but bringin down all 9 mobs down to 1-2% and then nuking them away with blms could be a challenge with each lamp 25k hp. But if you do wrong, for example killing lamp first or killing the boss before, would give you a punish -> Hellsnap and switching to a new form, where you must start from beginning. --Yak00 20:23, 22 August 2008 (UTC) Yakoo Possibly Lamps are tied into his HP? In Einherjar, isn't there a boss Dvergr that summons 12(?) Demons, and each time you kill one it takes off HP? Or as Yak00 said, it could be similar to Ying and Yang in Dynamis - Xarcabard. -- 03:55, 23 August 2008 (UTC) Both tactics could be tried but it would require a dedicted end game LS to actually read this talk page, I expect there is a trick, perhaps an order to kill the lamps, or the two previously suggested tactics. People just have to try things rather than do the same thing for 18 hours like morons, this is why I like FFXI it challenges rather than WoW which I gave a try and had no real degree of difficult. But I don't want to turn this into a FFXI vs WoW debate. Tidus mi2 14:34, 24 August 2008 (UTC) ------- Yea I have the same opinion. I doubt that SE want us to fight PW all forms or 18 hours, I mean they know that we have also a real life. The mistake is, that we try to do the same battle plan as always. Straight fighting does not always work, like Kirin where you have to kite him and doing Skillchains and Magic Bursts (yea, you can also TP burn him, but thats another story). I just had the idea of killing the lamps (with PW) from Salvage @ Bhaflau, where you have to kill 2 gears at the same time to spawn a Rampart. So trying to bring all down lamps down to 1 or 2%, holding them and nuking them away (with PW), could weak him or bring his true Dverg form. But if you fail with this method (killing the lamps not at the same time) would punish you with Dverg Hellsnap and a new form with new lamps. I think BtL fought him normal way, all forms through until his real form, which would be the worst way to do him. And I wonder why they gave up at his true form (yea I know, they went ill etc.), but were at his last real form (maybe? we dont know maybe he would change again). --Yak00 14:50, 24 August 2008 (UTC) "Newsworthy" necessary? First: "The linkshell had to quit the fight, as it's members were risking serious actual injury by continuing." Is false. If you read the provided entry, people were feeling ill, nothing "serious." Second: Now that PW changed, is it really necessary to post the news links? I seem to recall a certain case with a pedophile who kidnapped a teenager and forced him to farm on FFXI and do "other" things, and yet that's not posted on the farming page or have its own article. The wiki is about game content if I'm not mistaken, not news reports. --Grm88 22:26, 10 September 2008 (UTC) New Fights Has there been any new attempts since the update? Would be kind of nice to find out if he is easier or not... Shentok 01:32, 30 September 2008 (UTC)